Affirmative racism

The white youth are the unfair victims of "Affirmative action"

Jaco Strauss
11 June 2003 E-Mail this page to a friend

Vuyo Mbuli made a statement on SAFM on 11 June to the effect that it is necessary to discriminate against the white youth of today in order to address the imbalances "created by Apartheid". I decided to take issue with his superficial analysis of the South African situation.
Hi Vuyo

...many young white people are leaving the country as they can't find employment...
During this morning’s debate with Dr Woods, regarding skilled South African leaving the country, interesting comments were being made by you.

A white person phoned in and mentioned the fact that many young white people are leaving the country as they are discriminated against to the extent that they can’t find employment in the formal sector. Just open any newspaper and look through the job ads. You will not be able to miss the blatant racism.

In reply, you suggested this is the only way in which to “address the imbalances of the past”. You justify this by claiming that these whites are (in your words) more skilled than their black counterparts. I’m not sure if this is indeed the case, but if you are correct in your assertion, would it not be economically foolish to force employers to employ the lesser skilled, while the better skilled leave the country?

such blatant racism, whether labeled “affirmative” or not, is very unfair - especially in what is supposed to be a so-called “non-racial democracy”
What do we expect these young people to do? Apologize for something they haven’t done and move into a squatter camp? Obviously the most qualified of these will rather leave South Africa and in the process help build the economies of other countries.

I’m afraid such blatant racism, whether labeled “affirmative” or not, is very unfair - especially in what is supposed to be a so-called “non-racial democracy”. The new politically correct discrimination, supposedly aimed at benefiting “previously disadvantaged people”, in reality only benefits already privileged qualified urban blacks. And the associated waste of scarce resources is to the detriment of destitute people of all races.

What were the sins of these young whites in the first place? Two centuries ago their forefathers have already built up towns with schools and hospitals and brought commercial farming, medicine, science, engineering, etc to South Africa. This was at a time when the indigenous peoples were still being kept in a primitive state by autocratic Stone Age despots. Where any of these fruits of modern society exist in Africa, it was brought here by the hated colonists and settlers who at the time already enjoyed relative (contemporary) first world lives.

"40 years of NP misrule does not mean anything against the difference in the European and African development over the last 1000 years"
Later industrialization, mining etc. followed under this Western influence. Everything around these developments is obviously not necessarily positive, but every country in the world, including our own, wants more of these spoils, not less. African literacy was 0%, before the forefathers of those you label as “previously advantaged” brought modern education to Africa. The gap between white and black literacy is now much smaller than it was 300 years ago. The same goes for infant mortality, life expectancy, etc.

So, to explain the relative difference between young blacks and young whites as being the product of apartheid is pathetically superficial. Forty years of National Party misrule does not mean anything against the difference in the European and African development over the last 1000 years.

The white youth of today are forced to pay the price of Africa’s embarrassment. Instead of facing the realities of the past, take hands and build a proper future together, utilizing all the experience we have in this country, we rather drape ourselves in the clothes of the emperor while chasing qualified tailors out of the country.

Jaco Strauss

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This article got me into a national TV debate!

My views on Affirmative action got me an invitation to participate in a national debate on SABC1. It was broadcast Sunday 26th June and Thursday 1st July 2004 on The Chatroom.

Previous Visitor Comments

Name Email Subject Location
You looked in ptnrsiie condition like something in a museum? Kidding Dominic it was a tad silly to run so unprpared, but you did Great.Congrats on your media award but for the fact you support the wrong team in the Premiership you desrve it.

Marthinus Harmsemarthinus.harmse_at_gmail.comAnother expat
We left SA since we refused to have our children be judged for having white skins. We are liberal in political views and we support democracy, but not this false version of it. Madiba never wanted this I am sure.

Must modern German children pay for historic Nazi crimes? Must modern Americans pay for the Indians they have eradicated? The list goes on.

Why should my child (born 20 years after apartheid) be

punished for something he had nothing to do with?

I miss SA but we cant expose our children.

Regards from Switzerland.

Hey Ntsala,We would be happy to help your school get ivvolned in debating! Would you please post a comment or email me at: telling me which province your school is in so that I can get you in contact with your provincial schools debating board? They are the people to go to so that your school can get ivvolned. Tristan von Zahn (Operations Officer).

Jaco Norman
Let's see.... Jimmy's a racist, opportunistic, power hungry collectivist while I'm a non racial, freedom loving, anarchistic libertarian. So Norman, if you truly believe I have “much in common” with that halfwit, I'm afraid that you, on the other hand, are simply clueless! Incidentally, I have actually pointed out how similar Jimmy is to Trevor at Cde Trevor Manuel vs Cde Jimmy Manyi

Norman bigot remains a bigot...
You and Jimmy Manyi have much in common.

Jaco McFarlane
Thanks Norman, you’re always good for chuckle. I see my "shade better than average" rating "doesn't surprise" you. LOL. Maybe it is because this page has a straight rating and is not part of a debate. Like on the one debating page where I'm up against you ( and therefore much easier to look good! Over there my score is in the 70's and yours, well, in the 20's…. Must feel terrible to have your proverbial kicked so thoroughly by such an “average” writer ;-) As an aside, it was interesting to note that a government apologist, as blindingly naive as you are, slowly starting to show signs of waking up from his guilt-ridden coma…

South-AfricanAnonymousExisting together
There are different races, because it is supposed to be like that. Differences are needed for change. Regarding South-Africa: I have lived as a youngster in the Old South-Africa and I have lived through all the political changes in South-Africa. Listen to what I have to say about opportunities: Life does not owe anyone anything: If you want something, you have to work for it. No government has the right to take away your drive to achieve. This is true for the pre-1994 government and it should be true for the current government. Therefore, unless the current government changes its view on employment opportunities for whites, it has to suffer the consequences of not promoting an essential part of society. Of course, blacks may differ and argue that whites are not essential, but I would like to know if everyone was black, how the world would have developed into 2010? I am affraid that technologically, we would have been way back-ward - so why hate whites, because they introduced the first advanced technology? They still played and important role in the history of man and should continue to play their part. Drop the chips on your shoulders and start grafting towards a better South-Africa for all!!!

Henniehjwrov_at_gmail.comAffirmative racism
Interesting comments and views. What is interesting is that certain people is missing the point.So here is a little frase that every one can think about.This is in relation to a comment that was made by Sundu revering to a white box. We will start looking out of the white box if you would stop looking into the black-hole. action
I do not not buy any face of anybody, what i want to say is if this this country was as democratic and as free of racism as they claim it to be we wouldn't be in the mess that we are in right, this boils down to what we as children were taught by our parents, let us not blame apartheid on what we are facing right now, we are to blame!!!

Norman views, it seems, are considered Average
As at 21 September 2007, your vote counter on this thread rates your views as just a shade better than "Average". Why am I not surprised?

Norman a lot of whingers (well almost!)
Pity this site doesn't get the attention it deserves. I mean look at the majority of the posts. Predominantly from a bunch of disgruntled white reactionaries bemoaning the demise of their Apartheid hegemony, while cloaking their sentiments in a guise of pseudo-libertarianism. Ok, we do have problems in this country, and some of the things that our President (and government) does and says are questionable in the extreme, but adopting a considered policy of destructive criticism while sitting on your collective lazy white butts is hardly going to contribute towards nation building or make a positive difference. As one of the posts in this thread noted, if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. I am a white, (almost) 52 year old male. I am able to earn a living doing what I choose to do, and that by dint of my own efforts. AA, BEE and any other form of "unfair" and "discriminatory" government program you care to name has not, in any way, inhibited me in my pursuit of income and happiness. I read of a person with three degrees who has been done out of a job by an "undeserving" black AA appointee. I see a person, irrespective of his level of education, who will always find somebody or something else to blame for his own inadequacies. If this is the cream of SA libertarianism, then we have much to be concerned about. As Gina Davis' character said to Geofff Goldblum's character in the remake of The Fly: "Be afraid, be very afraid". I do so wish that more people who are able to recognise closet bigots, which by the way, are the worst kind, would visit this site and lambaste them for the craven destructive whiners that they are.

Ghenghis KhanAnonymousAA
Firstly, most white South Africans do not give a damn who is in power (Government).We care how the administration executes it's responsibilities, so please forget about this "it's our turn now" mentality.Just do the job on par or better than the world best standard.Ensure that the sewage farms work, the electricity grid is maintained/upgraded, the transport system maintained/upgraded, the security of all it's citizens upheld etc etc.If any government cannot do the basics above it is failing/failed & if it had any morals it would abdicate. Furthermore, this AA is nothing new to SA. When the Nat Party came to power in 1948 it packed the civil service with afrikaners essentially. The biggest difference is that they did the work that was required of them i.e. the sewage farms worked -no raw sewage flowing into rivers from informal settlements etc. As english speaking people we knew that the civil service was not for us so we grew the private sector by starting our own businesses, working for private firms etc which contributed to job growth & all the other positive aspects of the capitalist system.Today however it is virtually impossible to start your own business as the law states that you have to hire people of colour at every level, all businesses are compelled to only do business with AA approved companies (no tenders going to whitey)plus if your business is of a certain size you have to sell off 51% to AA or you get fined.Never mind the taxes you pay.So even if you want to start your own business the dice are stacked heavily against you. Lastly, my forefathers went through just as hard times through colonialism, slavery & the like. The Romans ruled us (Britian) for eighty years & Europe/Mediteranian for 400 years. Then came the Moors (Muslims) for 200 years. All nations have suffered tremendous cruelty/savagery in their history. It's a pity we have no written record of Negroid history other than those recorded by the arabs/europeans which are always accused of racial bias. In fact our esteemed president even wrote that Negroids invented the written language. Africa is burning

Cyniccynic-101_at_hotmail.comIt's Time
It's time that white Africans stridently start drawing international attention to the lies, deceit, general mythology human rights abuse, graft and corruption of the Liberation Struggle and black African despots and dictators. It's time that those responsible for the millions of innocent deaths that were central to the "Liberation Struggles" be forcibly brought to account. It's time that those harbouring anti-white racist and black supremecist sentiments be dealt with in the same manner as White "Racicts" have been persucuted over the last decades. It's time that those responsible for installing the Amins, Mugabe's Mandela's etc be brought to book for sabotaging the African and therefore Global Political peace and stability and it is time that white people stopped their orgy of guilt induced self-flagellation for so-called perceived white injustices against blacks because there is nothing in centuries of white history that can even remotely match the human rights atrocities perpetrated by blacks against blacks in recent modern history let alone the human atrocities perpetrated by blacks against whites. It's time that white Africans and white people in general took a stand against the global agenda of the eradication of whites that is emanating out of Black Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

Cyniccynic-101_at_hotmail.comWhere's the Logic?
This whole black racist programme of disenfranchising whites in south Africa and trying to give it plausabilty by defining it as "Affirmative Action" is now as tiresome as it is insane. Affirmative action is nothing but black racism - PERIOD. It's time to stop couching it in politically correct cliche and label it for what it is - it is black racism and it is part and parcel of the ANC endorsed programme of the piecemeal genocide of white South Africans that is being explained away as crime. So if we unpack just these two areas of the ANC Anti-White Black racist agenda we have "Affirmative Action" being justified as addressing the imbalances created by Apartheid and we have the bit-by-bit annihilation of whites in South Africa being ascribed to Crime and the two, by ANC logic go hand in hand and compliment each other so that at the end of the day the absolute eradication of all things white in South Africa by way of paying permanent pennance for Apartheid is the desired objective. There are many ways to kill a cat and in modern history the Nazis effected the holocaust and justified that by accusing the Jews of economic subterfuge, greed and manipulation of the European and specifically the German economies. The ANC government is doing exactly the same thing but they are effecting a holocaust in SA on a protracted basis in a fragmented manner. If one does the maths it took the Nazis roughly the duration of the war to eradicate 6 million Jews. In South Africa the ANC clearly intends eradicating half the number of whites in twice the time WITH THE FULL support of the international community. If we were to wake up to the fact that the ANC government agenda in SA is the absolute eradication of the white race along with their history, their culture and their heritage we would realise that they are doing exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews and they're coming up smelling like roses in the process. Who really cares what happens to 1.5 million whiteys slaughtered in South Africa with another 1.5 million absorbed into the international community??? Against the backdrop of conflict in the rest of the world, 150 000 people dying globally everyday and the Western super-powers bogged down in the middle east slowly obliterating the white population in SA will pass in the next few years with nobody even realising it. The parallel declining welfare of blacks in South Africa is not a concern of the ANC government - they're in it for the money and each and every black ANC-or-other individual in even the most junior position to manipulate the gravy train at the absolute expense of the general black population is doing so to absolute possible extent. Who care about the consequent deprivation of the black population????? Why do you think that Mbeki has done nothing about the Zim debacle? It is for the simple reason that African blacks see the international community as a bag of hot air and piss and they manipulate the sensibilities of white people so cleverly that they know full well that any government in SA can enrich itself to the nth degree, totally impoverish it's electorate blame the whites for everything and assign the welfare of their starving masses to the international bleeding hearts donor community. After all Mugabe got away with it why shouldn't the ANC in SA? The entire Southern African Liberation process is an absolute success story in manipulating the incredibly naive and stupid international community into believing in the "Evils of Apartheid" and the "Nobility" of the "Liberation Struggle" to place a very, very small minority of very cunning blacks into a position to turn entire countries and their entire resources into personal fiefdoms. The bottom line is that (some) blacks are not as stupid as we thank and that (most) white people are not as clever as we'd like to think because in the chess game that has been the decolonisation of Africa, whites have been outplayed, outmanoeuvred, outclassed and comprehensively beaten. The thing is, it doesn't stop there, once the dust of the dewhitening process and the inevitable collapse of Africa is complete and the recolonisation of Africa takes place as we see now by Chinese interests in Africa far surpassing their millitary efforts during the so-called "Struggle Wars" the terminally stupid whites of the internationally communityh are going to see their arses from so close up that a distinguishing feature of "First World" whites is going to be a brown ring around their noses. That should at least satisfy some of the burning desire they have to either be black or to do some serious blackp-ass creeping. Twats !!

VisitorAnonymousGeneral Comment
my dogter word teen gediskrimineer in sport. Is beste speler, maar vel is wit, wat maak jy Comment
After reading all the visitor comments, I would like to echo one, Please all Ex-patriates, return to your beloved country as it needs you!! Iets wat ek geleer het tydens my verblyf hier in Australie, Is dat elke persoon / Nasie eienaar is van sy eie noodlot. Neem die eienaarskap op, kom terug, en help bou aan ons toekoms??
In SA se strewe na 'n beter toekoms (na Apartheid) is ek van die opinie (en was nog altyd) dat die huidige regering besig is om die Kar voor die perde te span. Regstellende Aksies moet nie 'n "uitsluitings" beginsel wees nie, maar eerder 'n "insluitings" beginsel. In plaas van konsentreer om poste te reserveer vir "PDSA's", hoekom nie eerder konsentreer in die opleiding van ons jeug (swart, wit, bruin, geel, peink, blou..) om te kan voldoen in ons toekomstige behoeftes aan geskoolde arbeid, en die stimulering van gesonde en volhoubare ekonomiese groei en 'n sterk, stabiele ekonomie?? Dink net, met al die Suid-Afrikaanse vaardigehede wat hulself tans in die buiteland bevind, ekonomies aktief binne die SA Ekonomie? Hoeveel werksgeleenthede vir PDSA's het ons deur sulke blatante onnoselheid ingeboet?? 'n Ander bron van bekommernis vir my, is die hoeveelheid van ons Suid-afrikaans geskepte rykdom, wat ander ekonomieë ryk maak. Vra jouself af, hoekom is die Pond so sterk? 2 Klein Eilandjie's, met geen noemenswaardige natuurlike hulpbronne, of landbou produkte om van te praat nie, en tog die sterkste geld-eenheid ter wereld. almal kyk na die VSA as díe supermoontheid, dink weer!!

VisitorAnonymousAffirmative Action
It's so funny how some of the whities who are whinging about AA, never whinged about job reservation during the apartheid era. Why? Because they benefited from the system. So, grow up and face reality. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. heads
Hi all, Jeez, I was pretty depressed when reading all of this... mistrust and anger from black ad white South Africans...I LOVE my country of SA and its people, its not just my home, its part of me! After travelling and living and studying abroad I now really appreciate it! I realize we have issues, anyone knows that, and when I read shit drivelling like this forum, it really worries me! I wish I could send everyone overseas to the supposed 'promised lands' where everything is apparently just a bed of roses...after 7 years I can tell you is not! People should be free to choose where they desire to live and the shitty reality is that not all can afford it. So if you leave, I hope you don't, thats your choice, I wish you the best, but please don't sit aborad, feeling homesick and bitter and sling arrows to compensate for that. Nothing is more difficult than trying to have a foot in two countries - been there myself and its sux, it makes you mad. I agree with anonymous above, lets get together on this. I harbour no ill feeling if black SA'ers feel anger, of course, BUT I will be damned if I will be blamed for apartheid!!! I was a bloody child and only 17 when it fell. I think both the hardcore neo-cons and the bleeding heart libs who have become self-hating with guilt are douches. I am not accountable! BUT I am ready and willing to tackle the needs of SA and it environment and people, head on, with who ever wants to help. I am not out to rape my land and make millions, I am into simplicity and treading lightly, but treading confidently forward. Tolly Mbeki - you have a lot to learn, from your attitude, you would not get my vote, although your uncle is worthy of it.

RPanonymousHere's the deal...
I'm a 23yo Saffa living in the UK. I left SA for 2 reasons. First and most important, I completed a 3 year computer science degree at Potch uni and was unable to find work for 7 months in SA. Almost every time I picked up the phone or sent an email to apply for a job I was told "Sorry sir, we only accept Affirmative Action candidates". It is then that I decided to sell everything I owned(My old VW Golf from uni)and borrowed some money from the old man and move somewhere else where I would be able to start my career. A Month later I arrived in London, started looking for a job and was employed within 2 weeks of setting foot of British soil. Secondly, the CRIME! I cant even recall how many times I have been a victim of crime in SA in the last 5 years I was there. The government MUST take responsibility and do something about the crime otherwise SA will become another Colombia of sorts. Now I live in a country where I can leave my house, go anywhere at anytime and not fear being the victim of some sort of crime. The houses here aren't "prisons" with 8ft wall, electric fencing, 3 rotwilers, burglar bars and alarm systems... In my neighbourhood there are no walls, no alarms, no burglar bars and the dogs are family pets and not vicious guard dogs. Children play football in the streets and ride their bicycles till late at night without parents being worried that someone will mug, rape or do worse to their children. If someone is burgled, 9 out of 10 times the cops catch the burglars and it's the same for any other crime, the culprits are always brought to justice. I would love to go back to SA, it is after all the country of my birth, but with the state of crime and racial discrimination against White and Coloured people I don't see it happening anytime soon.

mz shortymz.shorty_25affirmative action
i am strongly against affirmative action and you guys have done a good job proving our point is a misnomer
I was browsing a search engine after wondering just how far the white-male issue and AA has materialised into a form of institutional grouping of like-minded attitudes. I came across this website. Here's the deal. I am 37, a qualified attorney, qualifications in property and financial services. Achieved numerous accolades in my chosen profession and various roles over the years. Completed 2 years national service, went to government school and generally contributed to postive non-racial and charitable casues. What I didn't know because I too young to realise was that I was a so called beneficiairy of apartheid. What this in fact meant was that from 1994 when a non-racial democracy was born there were the now incumbents of south african hierarchy plotting a legitimate "coup" that would effectively create the exact reverse of what preceded this new era. 10 years on we hear of a plethora of rhetoric talking down racist tone to one of previous years of constant discrimination. The strange thing is at 12 years old at the height of aparthied how was I a contributor of the wrongs of the past? SO then as beneficiary I pursued a career by first doing the honourable thing and completed national I didn't go about pretending I was gay, mental,disabled or jsut too scared and disapear fact I had no money to do that and moreover my parents would never had paid for it!!I then went to university adn worked dam hard completing three degrees and watched with dismay how the blacks at university simply missed lectures, paraded around like bears with sore heads shouting the same anti-government stuff they learnt doing POL SCI 101!!!Yes I'm sure there were those who did actually study with massive dedication!! I evolved in business with the utmost dedication adn passion. In 2003 I was in a senior positon in a financial services company in line to be the next MD. Ironic as it may seem, our parent company in the UK, suddenly got wind of BEE and sent over some arbitrary bloke to "performance" manage me out of my role and literally replace me with a black african MD with little or no experience in running a life office. 2 things spring to mind, the pommies got it horribly wrong cos the only good thing he did was on his first day he arrived with a brand new 7 series beemer and secondly he promptly put the business into a downward spiral of mayhem and total loss of competitievness in the market.Today it is no longer and nor is he still there sicne he moved on shortly before it detoriorated adn found some other reserved role for himself adn then probably upgraded his car again!! I was deeply upset since this my first taste of failure being an over-achiever all my life!! Anyway I then was able to first hand get a taste of what AA, BEE, and the all the other metaphors for filthy inequality and discrimination meant to a supposed democracy. I remember Hugh Corder, the now current Dean of the Law Faculty, at UCT telliing us whilst doing Constitutional Law..when two candidates apply for the same postion and when they have similar credentials the postion should go to the non-white candidate. I accept that wholeheartidly and in fact would even go as far as the say that even if the non-white is still short of the white male application but has the capacity to perform in that role with some training and empowerment then that postion should go to him as well. Where I have a problem and so would the literature refute it is where the white male applicant is not even considered or noted and blatant reservation is categorically defined, no semantics, no circuitous phrasing just plain overt job limitation to one group. So anyway what I wanted to say is that the fox has come out to play and I am doing just fine in every aspect in my life...I feel very sorry for the young white male who goes along the same path as I did which I am sure there'll be a lot of them! Yes I was forced to go in many other directions to succeed but I am sure there will be a huge numbers of guys who may not have the fortune that I had to hold on to my life and succeed..If there is someone who can explain why I am so wrong in my commentary save for some bullshit excuse like apartheid wrongs need to be corrected for all the years of suffering please shout out!!Tell me do Cyril, Tokyo, Patric & Co feel a deep sense of loss for those who have and still continue to suffer the torment of apartheid...bearing in mind they will enrich themselves without remorse as advantaged business folk for many many years to come..a clear economic oligarchy has been borne by those who plotted this selfish route at the outset and the saddest is that no-one will challnge it since they too are now advantaged. Fuck it I have written enough now..To all those whiteys play hard, take them low as my Dad always said they can't run when you tackle them low, don't give up..there is hope for everyone to succeed if you beleive!!! action action in south africa
There you are! action
ask her to read this exchande of views and figure out herself what the sentiments from either side of the divide are.

Masisi Cedilemasisivw_at_stellenbosch.orgAA
Oh really, super whingers,previously advantaged folks,can't we get on with the task at hand in our country and live like fellow countrymen? What is wrong in giving a fair chance to a person who has been regarded as a persona non grata in their own country? Fairness is what AA is built upon. Whethe today's white youth was or is not responsible for their forefathers' wrongs is neither here nor there. The important thing is granting a fair chance to the previously disadvantaged to build themselves up and in so doing bring out the potential that they naturally also have sothat there is equality and fairness for all the citizens of this beautiful country. The present whingers who are opposed to AA had it all before 1994,preference,advantage, actually the best of everything- schools, universities,ready jobs, preferential treatment by banks-you name it, they got it.What I personally do not understand is their failure to recognise that even if they were not personally to blame for the wrongs of the past, they nevertheless benefitted. I cannot, as a black person blame my parents for bringing me into this world to suffer injustices at the hands of the whinger's forefathers and fathers. I had to suffer together with my parents, but now I also have the opportunity to live my ideals and be the best I can be,just as the whinger had in the past. There is nothing wrong therefore in opening opportunities for the previously disadvantaged.For the ignorant, it is part of what is called Ubuntu and this is how we Black South Africans survived during the white autocratic rule. So there, live with it whinger or just do us a favour and get out of our country.

Jacquesj24sailor_at_post.harvard.eduAffirmative Action
We have the same problem here in the States. Less qualified people are taking over jobs which require a higher level of intelligence. Why? Because of affirmative action. Left wing liberals believe that they are helping these people by telling them that they deserve this and they deserve that and they are entitled to these benefits because of their long suffering, which happened 200 years ago. Do you belive that, had they created a society different from their primitive stone age, autocratic one, they would have let us in as white Europeans did? It would be how it is now in SA: whites are basically NOT welcome. I don't believe that it's because they are hateful people that they do this. On the contrary, my general opinion is that black people are nice warm hearted people naturally. It just seems like when they are betrayed or wronged, some will show their racist side. But the imposition of Affirmative action by liberals is hurting these people more than helping. I'll give you an example: My doctor referred me to a surgeon a couple of years ago, who just happened to be black. I couldn't help wonder if this doctor got to become a doctor because of help through affirmative action. I also thought my thinking this way is not fair; he could have struggled hard to become what he is. Is it fair to think like this? no. I should have no such thoughts with any other race, but why should I have to think this way just because he's black?

warrenAnonymousblack intelectuals who dont need the whites
when everything is done and dusted and the wheels have completely fallen off i look forward to your next self righteous philosophical viewpoint on what happened..........EISH!

sundu mathidza, 19Anonymous'thinking outside the white box'
Brian et al, there are 3 types of white south african. Firstly, the ones who still, harbour old prejudices and still dream of a return to the white 'volkstaat'.Secondly, the ones that understand that aparthied was wrong, and have no wish to return to the 'old system' at the same time showing no inclination to get 'with the programme' in the new south africa. The majority of white south africans (espcecially those who have emigrated)fall under this group. Thirdly, the ne-liberal (often pathetic) white south african liberal who has moved so much to the left that they are willing to appease the ANC governement at any cost to their culture, language, history (especially some afrikaners).These are the ones that often are the biggest advocates of programs such as AA (BEE). The reason I'm mentioning these 3 very different groups is that they all share the same FATAL FLAW. They are unwilling or unable to think outside the 'WHITE BOX'. Their whole life has been centred around the notion of 'whiteness'. You've been 'programmed' to act in certain way that Im afraid it will take at least another 50 years before we see a truly 'rainbow nation'. I worry for our beloved country when MADIBA dies. I hate ZUMA.

BriananonymousRead First
@ sundu mathidza If you read my post, you will see I am a South African, I was born in Durban. Let me comment on what you said here, "AA means that if there is a black person and white person with the same level of skill/ education /experience = then the black person will get the job over the white person.". I like your definition, but thats not what is happening. The problem, is that standards have been dropped instead of upholding them, for example, universities are under pressure to not fail anyone anymore, because its 'discrimination" if someone fails. The bottom line is that people who are not qualified/experienced are getting jobs ahead of poeple who are qualified/experienced. And anyway... If you read my earlier post, you will see I do not mind if a black gets a job over me if he/she is truly better than me.

Ellie Belbymhlabo_at_yahoo.comAA is evil
I am a 26 year old black woman. I have had no privilidged upbringing and have worked very hard to obtain the business successes I have reached thus far. I do not need AA to land me my dream job, I just need to bite down on my teeth and do the best I can do - just like everyone else. In fact, AA has only caused the world to question my capabilities. The end of Apartheid brought us a plethora of opportunity I truly believe that its up to each and every South African to create the strongest country we can create.And that can only be done if we employ the best of the best. By building a strong country we can address REAL issues such as poverty and aids. I challenge my black brothers and sisters to become the best of the best. Dont rely on old grudges. Rely on your own strength and insatiable spirit.

Jaco MR
Is this pathetic little piece of projection the best the neo-apartheid apologists can come up with? The lefties are really intellectually bankrupt!!! See the leftie insult generator for details ;-)

Obviously the website provides an excellent platform for disgruntled whingers who still mourning the fall of apartheid, their lose of power and privilege

de souzacellol2006_at_yahoo.frannonce
i have a big place at ivory coast and i want some person who can help me to built a big action place
I am currently doing HR and this has opened my eyes to the policies that the Goverment has put to place. I personally don't think it's unfair that we as the black folk are being given a chance because the white race had too long an opportunity. Now that it is our chance it is being reffered to as unfair. How long has it been? Only a decade, we need to look at such things and the fact that there are still alot of white people in top positions and there are people who are complaining about how we as black people are being given the fair advantage. We need to look at things like the fact that the AA doesn't employ unskilled workers or does it? So I just need to say to all those people who think it is unfair, they need to get over it because it is happening and they must just get used to it or move out!

sundu mathidza, 19AnonymousDominique,Brian, Mike
Dominique, Brian and Mike, please stay out of south african issues. I presume all three of you are North American?. You know nothing of South Africa, by working there for a few moths or LISTENING to the biased and negative comments of white south Africans abroad does not make you experts. Let me enlighten you on Affirmitive Action( not to get confused with Clintons 'positive discrimination' policies in the USA in the late 1990s). AA means that if there is a black person and white person with the same level of skill/ education /experience = then the black person will get the job over the white person. Why shouldnt they get the job? whites still own and dominate 90% of business, there needs to be a clear re_allocation of wealth and resources. Thankfully, the emergence of a black middle class in cities like Joburg and Cape Town is a clear indicator of progress ( black elites will always be around in Africa!). Although the public sector is well represented by blacks, the private sector still needs to catch up. So all WHITES, please stop complaining about AA, the opportunites are there for you, its just you've got to work that much harder than before !!!

mandlaanonymousaffirmative action
dominique, i have read your comments on affirmative action and i wish to enlighten you. black employment in south africa is only more visible in government institutions and parastatals. there are no significant black decision makers, managers, white collar workers, technicians employed in the private sector. you only meet messengers, cleaners and menial workers in white owned private companies. you go to all the factories in midrand and show me black faces ... there's absolutely none. if you meet one it is because it has been brought on board to bring in the lucrative government tenders; and without significant capital contribution, suxch a black person earns very little in the profits. We as black people live with it and accept that maybe we do not have the kind of capital to start our own businesses. as a black i go to job interviews where my expertise is judged in terms of my accent and eurocentric constructs, which is why black women have inordinately excelled in projecting eurocentric values. it is only in government that i am valued for what i am really capable of. and indeed racism is not about trivial things such as affirmative action, but is about real economic power and political power which is used through entreched institutions to denigrate and perpetuate the slavery of others. at this stage in south africa much as white people may wish it, white people have never been on the receiving end of such institutionalised discrimination simply because black people do not have the economic power to oppress white people. as long as someone can afford a R10000 return airticket overseas and afford to meet the stringent overseas immigration rules, they are far from being discriminated and victims. it is a question of normal job hunting on the international market. we have about 40% of adults in the black communities that are unemployed. this is the result of 40+ years of white ideology. i have lived during oppression and racism, if i had then access to capital, to prime land on the coast, owned the mines and factories, and my people owned 91% of the capital of the entire country, no one could discriminate me by simply staring down on me. I could laugh all the way to the bank and the suburban restutarants in the evenings. racism must be understood in its proper perspective. affirmative action can be anything but to equate it with racism is an insult to us who suffered under real racism. Apartheid was not about exclusion only, it was about humiliation, denigration, victimisation,and unjust laws to entrench the inferiorities visited on people who wanted to escape them.

DominiqueAnonymousInternational Ignorance
I am Canadian and my fiance is Afrikaner and he has recently returned to South Afica in search of work after a few years of travel. Unfortunately every menial position is reserved for affirmative action. The government's hypocracy blows my mind. After years of feeling discriminated and mistreated, you would think SA's black community would want equality, instead they turn around and treat the whites as if they are an unwelcome part of their society. In a blatant disregard for human rights, whites are literally being driven from the country from which they, too, were born and raised. Who ever said that racism wasn't racism when it was directed at white people? After a remark from one of my co-workers here in Canada, I realized how ignorant the rest of the world is to this hypocracy. After a friendly Afrikaner doctor came in and had a nice chat with us, I had mentioned to her that I loved his accent. She proceeded to tell me she didn't like white South Africans because of what they do to black people. I was amazed at the ignorance of her comment. There are two sides to every story and the world seems to hear only one side. Why are people so afraid to stand up for the white African communities? Why do those who stand up for the rights of whites get portrayed as racist in the global community? Basic human rights apply, no matter what colour your skin is. The right to have a job and feed your family is no less important for a white man than a black one. "Isn't is obvious that a person would leave from where he is hated so much? The heroism of staying in such a place is that of a roach which won't be exterminated from the bathroom." -Franz Kafka

dalisudalisu_at_yahoo.commy thoughts
people may say that the white man brought us (black people)out of stone-age. i answer with a question, who build that infrustructure with their bare hands? Black people!!! another question how to you get someone to be good at some thing? you expose them to that. whites are generally good at rugby and swimming because they grew up doing that it's in their genes. black people are good at soccer because we grew up playing that, we were exposed to it. it is in our genes!!!!!!!!!!!! now by affirmative action the government is trying to expose black people so that it becomes part of their genes and that later on we wouldn't need affirmative action. how are you gonna employ someone with no experience? this is a big problem with us the youth. companies want experience but how can your ass be working when you can't get a job to get that experience? there are moments when you walk into company and the assistant doesn't have a clue of whats going on that you as the customer have to explain the company policies to. but that person is getting exposed and later on he/she will be good. there is no other way to expose us black people either than affirmative action. and if you as a white south africa who loves his/her country, you will support the upliftment of all its people. i'm not saying we don't need white people, we all need each other, we all have a part to play. the whites need to stop leaving the country and help educate the youth. we all love this country, i'm 100% proudly south african and i love this country. we black people need to be exposed so that we can come to the party with ideas on how to take this country of ours to being the power houses of the world. and we all need each other. i schooled at a township and white school so i understand from both parties, buut there needs to be patience and harmony, and believe that this country will make it far with EVERYONE involved.

BriananonymousTo Tolly
If you are so proud of yourself, why are you going to the states to get educated? I dont know what dream land you are living in but crime is not decreasing. Its getting worse by the day. You are living a very secluded and sheltered life Tolly, and being only 15 gives you zero life experiance. And also... it has nothing to do the shoe being on foot. I or my family was never part of apartheid. I am a first generation South African, my parents come from Europe. Anyway... I also agree with Mike, I would rather have someone get a job because he CAN DO the job and deserves it (black or white) not becuase it was handed to him because of colour. I really hope that going to America will open your eyes.

MikeAnonymousTolly misses the point
Tolly, I geuss you're missing the point totally. It's not a matter of a black or other race getting a better paying job over a white, for the sake of trying to make up for the inequities of the past, its having THE BEST QAULIFIED PERSON getting the job. If you truly want to build a country to be proud of, then you would want to have the best PEOPLE you can have filling the positions in the economic sector. Tolly, which would you rather have build the airplane you will obviously be using to get to Stanford, a group of people with little or no mechanical or engineering experience who got their jobs just because they are of one race, or a group of college educated mechanical engineers?
Is it not strange how opportunistic blacks are in general as they have been as far as our history goes back? Lets take AA it was something instituted by America to correct their imbalances of the past but let us roughly compare the countries ... America America 10% black 90% other so if you give all the blacks jobs 80% other will still be employed ... now SA 80% black 20% other so what happens when all other jobs are given to blacks here ? 60% blacks will still be unemployed and of course history proves that virtually no companies will survive under this management ... so in 5 years time no economy and no jobs for anyone , who will you blacks blame then ?... let me guess... wha yes of course APARTHEID !!!!

Tolly MbekiAnonymousGet realistic
This is a message to Brian who posted the last meassage on the 22/11/2005 .GET REAL, be realistic you know as well as I do, we would never hand power back to the whites. Your idea of dividing the country in to 2 ethnic races is crazy. Im afraid the whites have 2 choices, either stay and help build South Africa or EMIGRATE. Affirmitive Action will stay for as long as neccessary. So accept it and deal with it. Whites need to move on and stop blaming AA for your change in circumstances. God, you really dont like the 'shoe on the other foot' do you !!. It will be people like me who will be running this country in the not too distant future. Im 15 YEARS OLD and im the nephew of our president THABO MBEKI. Im well educated and plan to study at Stanford in the USA. I will then return and help build my country. South Africa is improving every year, crime ir reducing, inward investment is increasing and ex pats are returning. So, please Brian, feel free to live in London for the rest of your life ( do you suppose, the black elite would miss you ????) But, please do visit for the 2010 Football World cup. It should be a great show. I cant wait for the bastion of afrikaner rugby venues (ellis park, loftus versfield) to be mass of black faces. Can ou imagine that 75,000 BLACK south africans watching a football game at a traditional rugby venue. see ya

Hey All, I am a South African male, thirty something years old and living abroad. I long for SA so much, it is still one of the most beautiful countries in the world. But its no place for whites anymore. The sad thing is there is no future in SA, the rich will get richer, the poor will get poorer. Things will/are just getting worse. Especially the crime. I wish it were different, I really do. I saw my childhood neighborhood change from a safe place, to a ghetto after 1994. Now its not safe to walk out during the day, never mind at night. I know apartheid was not the best thing but at least it kept out the trouble that was already in the townships. I am so tired of all this crap about AA, past injustices etc. All I can say is that I did not ask for it, I dont care about it, I did not do it. Enough already!! I work hard for my money. If a black (or any color for that matter) can work better than me then he deserves the job. Simple. But till that time lets not bring down the economy of the country by hiring less experienced or qualified people. But... I have an idea. Why not just divide the land into 2 parts. One for blacks and one for the rest. By dividing I mean spliting into 2 seperate countries. Then lets see how long the blacks last on their own and we will see the whites etc. prosper as they did in the past. Rant over!

MikeAnonymousNo More AA ANYWHERE
I am not South African, but a US citizen.Affirmative action does more harm than good, by forcing employers to hire less qualified people over better qualified people, on the basis of race. The same goes for the universities here, less acedemically qualified students get accepted over better qualified students, just because they need more students in the class room of a certain race. If I'm in need of a surgeon for heart surgery, I don't care what race they are, as long as they are the BEST and most skillful I can get. My forefathers immigrated to this country,AFTER slavery was abolished, and worked as white slaves in the anthracite mines. So why must I suffer through the inequities of AA, when my family were'nt slave holders. Also, most of the people who are benifitting from AA, cannot trace their roots back to a plantaition in the US deep south, so why should they benefit? Everyone is born equal in the Creators' eyes, so let everyone be equal in the eyes of the law and abolish AA everywhere.

Mr Bongo Longono thanksaparthate, whitehate
My beloved South African brothers and sisters, my heart cries - and I pray that you will all educate yourselves. Right now a lot of blacks are taking racism forward in the new SA - thinking mistakenly it’s going to benefit them economically. That’s just the same reason why the whites took racism forward - thinking it was going to benefit them economically. What happened to the white uneducated folk? Their white apartheid masters (master manipulators) stole the money and hid it in Swiss bank accounts - then promptly and without any struggle handed the impoverished poor and uneducated whites over to their new black masters. Just like the poor whites are paying for their own gullibility so dearly now - being at the bottom of the economic feeding chain - so my current generation of black brothers are being ripped off by those they believe to be their “saviours” - and we know how dearly they are already paying for that, and will pay even more somewhere down the line. Are you so gullible as to not see how the deal was done between the old white masters and the new white master - so as to escape the Nuremberg situation and effectively perpetuate the wealth of the old masters and create corrupted new masters? The reason why it’s so ironic is that the current SA rulers are just as racist as their hated apartheid masters of old - Mr Verwoerd must be smiling as the racialism continues! Oh, and he’s not too upset that the poor whites are now really and truly screwed - to believe that would be to imply that he actually cared about the “little man” - but like all madmen including Mugabe with his bulldozers - he never really gave a damn! The second irony is that is that the new SA claims the moral high ground - even as we all keep on filling out all those different forms that ask what race you are - in the form of some kind of perverted justice. This is how we “fix” the past - but the past is gone, and all first year psychology students soon learn that every form of mental illness arises from carrying the past into the future, and refusing to let go! So if you’re wondering what genius is writing here, and if you don’t properly understand South Africa and what’s happened - why not read the "Animal Farm" parable by George Orwell? It’s cheaper than a political science degree and more truthful. I am qualified to know - I have such a degree in politics from the University of the Witwatersrand. So I'm not going to reveal my race because race-referenced folks will then make all sorts of incorrect assumptions about me. Suffice it to say that I’m no baby - I’ve lived long enough to see the wheel turn and I’ve lived through aparthate being replaced with whitehate. I was born in SA in 1967, and lived in Atlanta in the USA from 1999 to 2000. While there I saw true freedom - I was judged on my abilities only. I'm back in SA now - if I had the money I would send every South African person to the US for two years to help them get over their racism (and that includes my black brothers too). No, I'm not a great fan of American culture - but I don’t hate them because they’re just trying to get by in this life, cope with their debt, and give a little to help Africa. Incidentally, in case you’re trying to decide if I am racist - I’m not. My wife happens to be the finest woman in the world - so I'm not married to her because she is of a different race, or because she isn't of a certain race. Learn to see past race - get over it my brothers! The only racist incidents I did personally witness in the US did show my black brother folk to be incredibly racist over there. When black folk hate white folk and “blame” them - or white folk hate black folk and “blame” them - it’s no different, really. If you’re black and doing this you’re no better than those poor whites, even if you think you are! Have you noticed you the poorer and less educated folks are - the more racist they are/become? Makes you think! Remember that the longer we continue persue racist policies (no matter what past justifications can be ill-advisedly dredged up) against white folk the longer the backlash will be that will sooner or later come back to us - because that wheel never stops turning. Don’t you remember the days when you thought apartheid would never end? Then it went and ended in your lifetime - and you had no more excuses anymore! That was a problem in itself, wasn’t it? So don’t think that your place at the top of the wheel is secured forever, my brother - that would make your mentality exactly equal to those poor and uneducated whites who though apartheid would never end. Is that really how you see yourself. Go take a drive out to the north western “white suburbs” of Pretoria to see where that thinking got them! The bottom of the cesspool! Oh, and to the NIGERIAN BROTHER - go back to your own country to pimp, prostitute and peddle drugs there if you cannot make and positive and racism-free economically-useful contribution here in South Africa. You have your own racist and tribalist troubles there - how dare you bring your rubbish-filled mind here before your own house is in order!

PZardonida_at_hotmailThen .. and now
I am a white female, currently in London. I miss my country, and the peeps.. I am not welcome here, because of my 'history of apartheid', where I had no hand in it, but grew up in the era, I am even chastizes NOW by the inhabitants of THIS country... What to do when you are not wanted in your own, and not welcomed in another? You go where you can LIVE. Hence I am here. We work so hard to put up a united front, but deep down the resentments grow... and instead of directing it at the pple who could make a change... we direct it at each other in utter frustration. We all say the same things, we all agree that it needs changing. BUT who is going to change it? Who is spreading the 'gospel'? Who is going to pick up the pieces YET again? Our children's children - and who knows how THAT will turn out?

VisitorAnonymousGeneral Comment
Sad but true, the ability to discriminate just got transferred in recent years. Don't expect any big improvements.
Hi everyone Like before I am still saying the same thing let us work together and build our country, we are all human beings and we all make mistakes and we all like to be forgiven let us move on and forgive those who have done us badly and unite as a nation. God bless you all.Phyllis

mariAnonymousGeneral Comment
i like touch rugby

acperzacperz_at_msn.comDistorted Strauss
Mr. Jaco Strauss you have obviously not done your homework sir. All of the technology that you use today came from different sources, not just white inventors. Being a the smart white man that you claim to be, you should do careful and unbiased research before making allegations that only blemishes white reputation. Of course there is gonna be gain in literacy rates if everyone is forced to speak the same anglo-languages. Duh!Bye the way, whites have always had affirmitive action. Unlike your misguided article... History does not lie!!! Educate yourself sir.

Pride action
i think people shouldn't regard affirmitive action as discrimination against the white people, but as a way of balancing the equation between the blacks and white. much difference has been created by the apartheid regime, which was to the detriment of blacks, which some of the whites have been able to sustain up to this stage. so I think afirmative action is a good move from the government to distribute the privileges to the previously disadvantaged.

peasantAnonymousre : a just society
Gaby girl, do a search on Arthur Jensen, he gives very nice non-racist scientific results of studies into IQ trends and differences in different races over the last 30 years. Be it upbringing, food, or how you sleep but caucasians tend to have the higher intellect. sorry. It doesnt make me hate other races but thats just how it is. And the lambos and masingas if you look at history all our technology comes from caucasian or asian brains and i presume in the future it will be the same, maybe you may need the insignificant asians and white dogs.

ezekiel radabeAnonymousGet with the Programme
This website has been talked about by a lot of south africans living in London, so I was really intrigued to see what all the fuss is about. After reading this site, it just shows how 'fucked' up our country really is !. Iam young well educated black south african that went to boarding school in Harare. My parents decided to move back to SA in 1994.I have lived all over the world as my dad works for the United Nations. let me tell you this, there is no country in the world with as polarised views and attitiutes as South Africa. It all comes down to one simple thing:RACE. It is obvious that the whites feel threatened and usnsure of the future, you have had it good for the last 100 years. so suddenly when the 'shoe is on the other foot' you all fall apart', you cant handle it ! . On the other hand, certain black south africans need to stop blaming all their problems on the whites. We all need to be more proactive (all colours). There is so much opportunity for people in the new SA regarless of colour. The whites need to stop using 'AA' as an excuse for not getting jobs and the blacks need to stop taking employment opportinties for granted. I am the IT manager at the South African high commission in London. To be honest it it is 85% black, but the whites who work with us are great. they tend to be between 22-33 yrs old and are very positive about thier future back home. They will evntually return. the ones that I have no respect for are the white SA in London between the ages of 30- 50yrs who come to the UK to have their kids and emigrate 'unofficially'. They are welcome to stay in their small 3 bedroom houses in Earlsfield. While, we back home have our 6 bedroom houses, weather, sports, maids, swimming pool. Lets see how long they last in the UK, before they beg the ANC to let their kids back into SA

M.M StraussanonymousHopes for SA
I am a true blue blooded South African and Afrikaans! and proud. I've been living in the UK for 4 years. I love SA, love afrikaans..and I really loved reading everyone's posts on here. I am not a racist even though i grew up in the height of the Apartheid era, PW, Pik and all those guys.The hate between the whites/blacks will never end - just look at your posts - its all racial-fueled. It is indeed our generation that need to make the change, but look at us - on a web forum arguing about racism. There are issues, we can't change the past..but we sure as hell can shape and change our future. We can never play happy families with each other because we all have our grandparent's "issues" engraved in us..we have to see this and move on. Work together to make things better..our generation needs to do that. But until EVERYONE realise that - we are stuck with racism, skilled people leaving SA and a crime filled ZA. come on move on!

gabriele corsettigabriele_corsetti_at_hotmail.coma just society
I am white, half-italian and half-english. I have nothing to do with south africa, and I've never been there, so I'm no expert. however, I'd like to say that I think "affermative action" may be wrong in this case, but the fact is that apartheid created this situation. all this stuff about the differences accumulated in a 1000 years between europeans and africans has nothing to do with it. If black people are born into the same setting as whites, they will do just as well, since they are not genetically inferior. it's just that untill 1994 they could not study in a university or anything, and so they remained uneducated, while providing the cheap labour through which the whites turned south africa into a modern prosperous country. in the space of 10 years, things won't have changed, because the classist nature of any society means that people who's parence are poor and uneducated have a much higher chance of staying so. this situation should be corrected not through affirmative action laws which will only help the elite of blacks, but through building a just society. perhaps whites should also remember that they did not come to south africa 400 years ago through invitation, but to suit there own interests.

Guys......GuysanonymusAffirmative Action
Hi all.You guys all seem to be very emotionally charged up, but it's good that we can all speak openly about these issues.I am a white male living in South Africa(which I believe is the next land of milk and honey).Even thought I do agree with some of the issues raised about affirmative action I would like to state a few facts:Fact #1:The country represents only 3% of the continent's surface area, yet it accounts for approximately 40% of all industrial output, 25% of gross domestic product (GDP). Yes....South Africa currently has the strongest economy in Africa. Fact #2: Our electricity is the cheapest in the world Fact #3: Our inflation rate is steadily declining Fact #4: SA joined the Commonwealth in 1994 after 33 years of isolation. Fact #5: Our Business confidence index is at a staggering 88 points according to RMB the highest its been in 23 years Fact #6: The property market is booming with a 32% growth in 2004 alone. I can carry on but I'd but I think you get the picture. I urge all South Africans abroad to pack your bags and return to Mother Africa. I may be from European descent but I was born and raised in Africa and therefore I am an African...and a proud one aswell. Guys(and girls) let's join hands and go forward together.If there is one thing we all could learn from our black brothers its that there is strength in numbers. Leave the petty quarrels.Everything is going to work out fine. Let's see this as a challenge.How do you face a challenge -With negativity and scepticism or by giving it your all? Rome wasn't built in a day. C'mon people we need to work together here.

Andrew Taylorampers at gmail comYour loss is our gain
Whilst not a soutie (I am British with both feet in London) I was brought up as a child in South Africa so therefore take a keen interest in the country of my formative years. Whilst we, in the UK, are gaining by all the Afrikaners, and to a lesser extent, English speaking South Africans, I feel sad that South Africa is losing all this expertise. Because of this, standards will definitely fall and, in the longer term, South Africa wiull lose its place in the league of world economies. It is only by people like Jaco Strauss beeing fearless and speaking his mind, that there may be hope that the black leaders of the country will come to see reason. But, alas, I am not holding my breath. PROBLEM
It's all about merit! Thats it! You guy's are like little children. Screw AA, if you got the qualifications you got the jod. SIMPLE

Davidlancelot.knight_at_gmail.comUK and the Immigrant population
Oh Ade, my friend, you are sitting on your butt in a country where you are not even welcome, filling an AA position in an S African company. What a patriot you are, how do you think SA is going to survive without you! Please come back, we need you here! You are no use to us lounging behind a desk on a cushioned chair in London! Do you not realise that economists that cannot even discern the value of South Africa’s Hindu population, a hard working industrious people, who have pulled themselves far beyond any political restraints and have done so without whinging like our black people and their begging bowls, have no place in English society. A society which by any standard is the one of the most racist in the world? You are like Stevie Wonder, who kept on smiling because nobody had ever told him he was black! You sit there in the UK among people who look down on you as a foreigner, sharing a country that that you are not welcome in? And you have the temerity to saddle your high horse and preach to us back home. The very small part that I contribute to the South African economy and general well being is infinitely more that you are able to achieve in your fishbowl environment! You are no more than a spoilt little fascist racist protected behind a glass wall. You are bigoted and yet tell me that in twenty years the black population of my country will not need me, what are you smoking boy? I regret to tell you that all your time at Oxford was a waste! is the keyword unit without a "y".
I'm a black South African currently studying at Tuks, a prehistorical white owned university where AA is implemented to give preference to white folks due to the fact they want to speak taught in afrikaans where as the rest of the country has compromised tobe taugth in regardless of it being their second be continued the boss ischasing me out of work.
I am a black south African living in the UK. My comment is we need to move on and work together as a nation and build our country. hope for S.A
I'm an african from Cape Town (Langa)and I must say this site is interesting. Guys lets build our country as one not to point fingers and other people in 1994 S.A was reborn so evryone whp experience the reborn of the country I say lets go and help each other. I'm not talking about people who argue about racism they cant get work.... I say you had your chanc and you blew it away and now its our chance to build the country if you disagree you can go to Europe and be a slave for the second time or go litle Orania the so could country freedom and get squashed there. Lasty lets unite and be as one and we can make a diff only if we can share and unite PEACE to everone Pathetic
I am sorry but I do believe that a lot of white South Africans need to come to terms with the challenges of democracy! I am a white Brazilian and I acknowledge that there is also a race problem in my country and therefore it's obvious that affirmative action is needed to correct social imbalances and I approve of it. It is very simple: if there is a large and disproportionate number of people of a particular race that are poor, then they need more help then the others. They need to be lifted. Their children need to be in an environment where they can grow up exploring the all their capabilities and potential and compete with the brightest. In Brazil, whites still earn more than blacks so please let's empower the blacks!!! I am afraid this might be hard to cope for the younger generations of whites, but if there is somebody that you should be blaming at the moment, it is your white grandparents, because they were the creators of apartheid in the first place! If you are really passionate about the future of South Africa, you have to make sure that all the social imbalances are resolved as soon as possible, and the biggest one of the narrowing of the wealth gap between whites and blacks! After this, everyone will be able to live in peace and race matters will become irrelevant.

JMLAnonymousSouth Africa
I'm new to this site,but I have heard a lot about it. Have all of youactually taken time to read what you have written. I am a white south african female, living in London, but my heart longs to return home. I have been a victim of crime (on several occasions) but still my heart longs to return. I've watched Prince Harry's documentary on Lesotho about the Aids plight and still my heart longs to return, I've read all your comments, and you know what, as long as the youth of today (19-30) feel the way you do (white against black) then our beautiful country will never recover. As long as the whites believe they are being discriminated against and the blacks believe it is their right to take over the country then there's no hope. We are all South Africans, black , white , pink , green, it doesn't matter, who you are inside and where you come from is what matters. The white youth didn't ask for apartheid, the black youths didn't ask for poverty, but it happened. Why dwell onb the past when it only causes hate and grief. Crime and aids is not the fault of the previous regime, it's due to lack of dicipline. I couldn't find a job in SA, but I didn't resort to rape and murder, I actually worked harder to build a future. And I say this to the white youths to, instead of pointing fingers to AA, get up and do something with your life, get involved with a program. It's so easy to point fingers in all directions, but point your finger at yourself, and start looking for a way to harmonize our Country. I'm proud to be a South African, white, black, pink or green, it's not the outside that matters, it's the purity of the heart.

Fungaireggie_at_yahoo.comWhite winds
Tis true that MOST white people trully believe in their superiority over other races. Its a shame that one like,Jaco, claims to be highly skilled yet he skilfully presents such a faulted and biased argument. As a black South African I know that I would not have a job were it not for Affirmative action. I also was in the top 10% of my class at varsity and I sat on placement tests to get my job. I do not think you can refer to me as "lesser skilled" than you? Its takes away the effect of your argument to delve into history in a negative and ignorant manner. All cultures evolve to embrace the dominant culture. That is why the world has become so Americanised. And one must be aware that its not your european forefathers who developed science and engineering but the Greeks and the Egyptians. And without cheap african (black) labour how would your oupas have built all these things you boast of? So much for your apartheid education! Yes, african literacy was close to 0% but that does not mean that the africans were stupid as you imply. I am sure there were a happier lot than us who have to deal with white bigotry and all the stress that comes with your western ways. Happiness is not about mortality rates and literacy. We now have to educate ourselves to put bread on the table our forefathers did not have to do this. Contrary to your comments about autocratic despots. The african societies of old had checks and balances to ensure that a ruler ruled fairly. Every ruler had advisers on all topics and they held court to sort out disputes. And just as the Gulf war was fought over oil they also fought wars over resources. So much for your apartheid education! Lastly, I do appreciate your point that you must not suffer for your forefathers sins - apartheid. Yet I fail to sympathise with you because you then glorify them as the builders of the nation. I am sure if you got 70% and over at varsity. Or if you have matric and your own transport and are fully bilingual you will easily get a job in RSA. Do these advertst not also strike you as racist? How many of these disadvantaged people you refer to fit the above criteria? Is this not saying "young white person required ASAP"? Its a pity you can never accept blacks as your equals. And in future do not be emotional and biased but present your facts in an objective manner. Who ever put you on national TV neeeds their head examined coz your view is the same drivel as that which put Hitler in power i.e. emotional peurile drivel!

Jannie van zylanonymousone nation
Why the hell should it always be a black v white issue. It really annoys me, can we not move on from the past and biuld a bright future together. We all share the most bueatiful country in the world. Im a 24 year old from Jo'burg and I've travelled all over the world (USA, Europe, South -East Asia, and Australia). I tell you what, although very impressive places indeed!!, there was nothing to compare to South Africa. I have a mixture of black and white friends, we do have constructive, frank and open discussions about many things, i.e the Aparthied past, AA, crime,aids. There are things we disagree on and things we agree on. But thats the buety of life,'for every indivual to have his/her opinions and beliefs'. I have now finished my travelling and will return to Joburg to work for my fathers Consultancy. I believe in South africa and I believe in multi-culturalism, London is a perfect example of how different races mix together and interact. Lets please get rid of all these negativities by both white and black and lets make South Africa somewhere to be proud of. When I was travelling around the USA and Western Europe, I was almost ashamed to say I was a South African because everytime i told someone I where I was from, they all saw me as a racist. I remember being in this bar in London and trying to talk to this English 'chick', as soon as I told her my name and country she presumed I was a stereotypical 'boer' and that I left SA becuase I could not accept a black government. I dream of the day when skin colour will not matter in SA And the rest of the world.

Phillip KnoxAnonymousPathetic
Black people can only respond with emotive, fantastical - almost rhetoric -reactive shit as opposed to logic and fact presented by the few white South Africans. This argument began with a perfectly normal response to positive discrimination. Now we've got 'Ad' bosses and immigrants commenting on who they believe should be responsible for something they never fully felt the brunt of. Simon, Jaco, as people with sense and sensibility, I know you'll take these final and pathetic responses as motions to disbandon argument. Congratulations on structuring an argument that held credibility, at least before Okeke decided reveal a disgraceful answer.

As a Nigerian I feel I have more place in Mzansi than simon reader and jaque straus. White people must go. off with white arrognace. off with white people. Go white people.

Gary'Post-Apartheid Syndrome'
I'm a first time visitor to this site and its been an extremely intesting read. I know look forward to my regular postings of the Mr Lambo, Simon Reader et al. As you've guessed I'm a black south african. Although Im not condoning what Mr lambo has posted over the last few weeks, I do understand where he's coming from. There is no denying that white south africans feel threated by affirmitive action and probably regard it as racially biased ANC intervention into the marketplace. What really annoys me about some white south africans is the negative sentiment regarding the economy and your clear self interest attitudes. I also beleiev that most white south africans would support a "white" volkstaat, although you dont openly admit that you would like to re-install apartheid. You seem incabable of admiting that the former political system was grossly injust. Many of you white south africans still beleive that that Aparthied was merely a good idea, badly carried out. You aslos eem to think that aparthied has done more good than harm to south africa as a nation. It is clear, that most of you who write on this site are suffering from 'post-aparthied syndrome' Firtsly, the syndrome can be expected to contribute to the perputation of racism and refusal to undo the legacy of aparthied. In short, most south africans still harbour the same attitudes as before, but also new prejudices being added to old ones. Fort example that blacks arepotrayed as non reconciliatory, vengful, and the most important of all, using past sufefring to excuse their current excesses. Secondly, is your refusal to be held accountable by your previous actions. jaco Strauss , mentioned in a very good written paper on why young white south africans should not suffer from their parents actions. I disagree , i believe every white south african should have a degree os responsibilty. Thirdly, an obsesion to 'glorify the apartheid best'. You are constantly mentioning how the country is 'going down the pan'. You fail to recognise the positive strides the ANC have made in 10 years. You fail to undersatnd the reason there is high crime. it all basically stems from the previous forty 40years It love the term coined by one of the contributors to this site, 'afro-saxons'. i love that term, yes, i'm young, black and succesful. I have my own advertising company in Cape Town and have won contracts on the back of some sorty of 'nepotism'. At the same,I've worked bloody hard to get where I am. I am vey pro africanism, 'm sure thats come out in my writing. At the same time, I hope we can live together and co-exist, without necessarily having to mix our cultures. I really hope the new generation of white sout africans, who are less tempted to glorify the apartheid past and are willing to support non-raciscm and democracy develops. It is the daughters and sons of the 'masters' of the past, who hold the key to the existence of the white south african in SA. Every year, SA becomes more 'african' and less european in its conscious . I hope there is a future for whites in our country, but if not, then so be it. Kind Regards / Ade Lambo
if you do have a "lovely cape town villa" like you said - maybe you should consider this: when you do go back to sa (heaven forbid - we could really do with less of you) try to find out exactly who provided funding for the equally lovely canal walk shopping centre(where you have undoubtedly spend a few rand yourself..)to be build. i think i am way better informed than you are. which by the way, is definitely one of the biggest in sa, so yeah, really "small scale". never noticed the trademark building structure, have you??? please do not confuse sa entrepeneurs with the off licences (which is predominantly asian-owned)you visit in london. and yes, before you ask: i am a white, sa boeremeisie in london - probably not very far from where you are sitting right now...

Simon Mohamed / Ade Lambo
My oh my - the hilarious contradiction of the modern Afro Saxon - a 'social liberal' who studied at Oxford where spelling clearly isn't top of the list of priorities? Your retort about 'boers' and white 'Saffas' is so savagely ignorant that it renders you incapable of participating in rational debate. You have constructed a peice of subliminal nonsense; we may well all be victims - hook, line, sinker and big fat Marlin. An Asset Manager, JP Morgan, big South African bank - all very impressive but for the fact that you seemingly need a translator in communicating to the 'team' you built - watching you type must be like turning on the lights during a game of murder in the dark. Ladies and gentleman, in a designation no greater than that of a foreman or construction site manager (the latter with dollops more credibility), Mr. Lambo is everything but black. The villa, the mention of 'greta' wines - his dinner with Her Excellency tonight (Heavens forbid - chicken giblets and French champagne) - the rounded racist, the lowest form of collectivism, the man wouldn't hesitate to denounce white presence on this continent if the price was right - no different from a Zanu-PF youth thug who would sell his mother for a packet of cigarettes. Whilst Mr. Lambo was studying in Oxford (tweed jackets, double-barrelled surnames, horn rimmed spectacles, smoking rooms - all very, very African - 'fits like a glove hey?), South Africa has evolved into the impossible; more often than ever, the business model of capitalism accompanied by philanthropy is increasingly becoming not only the product, but the basis-the communication. The protanginists, black and white South Africans, will establish a template for politics and economics on the same page - something unheard of anywhere in the world. This, unlike Mr. Lambo, is happening and if left to flourish with responsible financial management, will determine a white future safe in this country, regardless of racial instigators (all who seem to be these 'powerful' black youngsters in Saville Row suits and Bruno Magli shoes - again, very African). I said that you had the power but you don't. Neither do you have any balance, nor purpose nor sense. Instead lies a sea of spoilt-child naivety drenched in over-indulgence and a deluded sense of grandeur with scant regard for the obvious failings of AA and a flash of the race card upon interrogation. Please continue to hire the people who loathe your kind the most (bet you they have more racist jokes than the former Parliament under the NP) - how can you manage any assets amidst all the cloak and daggers? Enjoy your dinner tonight. Easy on the Grape Fanta and Chivas Regal.

Albertus Kliengeldajkleingeld_at_yahoo.comAffirmative Action
I would like to post a few comments to the latest response to our learned banker form London, Mr Lambo. Allow me to congratulate you on all your achievements from Oxford to JP Morgan. It sure looks like you deserve you’re your position where you are and not like Jaco said, that you are only there for the quotas. Very ironically, you will only employ people on basis of their skin colour and not their ability to do the job. So there is truth in what Jaco is saying, although you as an employee don’t fit the bill but you do fit the bill as an employer. So when you taught them all they know you also admit to their incapabality and again to what Jaco has said. I think you should think twice before you post your replies. I sure wish I could see the future as clear as you can, 20 years is a very long time, and to predict a mass economic revolution as you do warrant some caution. In your economic equation you failed to look at the AIDS pandemic, and by the latest figures the highest morlatlity occur amoungst “your black middle class”. So what will your 20 year forcast look llike if your middle class have died? Or do you like your government, you are a member of the ANC, refuse to acknowledge the AIDS pandemic? So you do admit that the black elites are only there where they are because of their conections. If the Boere are inrrelvant why bother to visit a website like this and debate the point. Let me tell you why, because we are nor irrelevant and you know that even if you don’t want to admit it. Please explain to me the following, if we are only good farmers where did the largest electricity supplier in Africa come from and where did SASOL:, the only plant in the world produce oil from coal come from? Did the fairey godmother put the infrastructure (roads, telecomication, postage etc) in SA? O no the Africans did that. Sorry wrong answer, if the Africans did that then what happened north of the Limpopo and South of Egipt? You also refer to us as good rugbly players, alow me to point out that we excell in golf, cricket. Athletics and even Hollywood, and you cant event win against Lesotho. Viva! hapless Bafana Bafana Only a hand full of you enjoy a good wine the rest of you prefers sorgum beer, so leave the pretensions. During apartheid the NATS had to defend the borders against the invations of hordes of Africans that had fled Africa to come and live in apatheid SA, I wonder why? For an Oxford graduate you’ve made some gross errors, I am not an economist or a banker, but the Indians did more for the SA economy than the blacks did before and after 1994. So if the Indians did nothing for the economy and the Boere are inrrelevant and the blacks incompetent, then we have to thank the fairy godmother for her support over the last 350 years. Well that’s according to your Oxford educated view. When last did you check the makeup of the ANC government, if you did, then you will see that there are quite a number of Indians in the public administration. Can I ask you to enforce your apartheid on us, please, let us have our own government, like the one you agreed to give to the Indians in Natal. Maybe you will get away with apartheid being from the right race. Taxes, yes this is a fair point, the ANC are not going to tax the Indians and the boere, they are doing it already. Who do you think pays tax in SA? The steet vendour, taxi owner or shebeen owner, no my learned friend the Afrikaners and the Indians. If you are going to use the English speaker to your adantage than let me tell you they’ll have to be in SA for a long time because your incompetence would require there services ad infinitum. I take exception to the fact that you call white South African dogs, as far as I can see, the whole of the forum is civilized, please accept that. If you can’t make respectable comments then you don’t deserve any respect. Again your reference to white South Africans and your social preferences would have made DR. Verwoerd a very proud man. Let me tell you one thing an Oxford education might bought you wealth and a Cape town villa, but you are still a racist that entice racial hate and as a matter of fact SA don’t need people like you. Albertus Kleingeld

Ade Lamboadelambo_at_hotmail.comAA
Guys, Thanks for your response, I love getting responses like that from the white south africans. There are one or two 'myths' that I would like to dispel. Firstly, you (Jaco) seem to think every black guy in any decent position within a company is a 'qouta'. I particularly liked the ' white guys below and above me doing my job'. Thats really funny, because I'm sure every white saffa thinks the same as well. Just to inform you, I studied Economics at Oxford (Merton Colelge) then went to Imperial College to do a Masters in Computer Science. Having left I worked for JPMorgan in London, having spent 5 years there, I was pitched by a saffa bank (name withheld) and asked to head up the London team within the 'Asset Management' desk. I have been responsible and still are for hiring and building my team. As you can imagine I only hire black south africans or white english (not to be confused with english speaking saffas). I basically taught them ever! ything they know. I certaintly dont have anyone doing my job for me and I'm certainly not there for 'photo opportunties' and 'demographic targets'. I'm realist, YES we still need you WHITES to help build South Africa, but not for long, there will come a time say 20 years when the 'black south african middle class' will totally dominate the economy, these are the people that will take SA forward, forget the 'black elites', they can continue within their roles in local/national governemnt. Oh that reminds me, you mentoned that I probably only got the job through my contacts and nepotisim, well your wrong buddy !!. You are right in terms of my party membership of the ANC , though ! Forget the boers as well;they are irrelevant, they play no significant part in the well being of the new SA. Throughout the history of SA, their expertise has been solely farming and the public administration, also rugby ! but thats even changing now , oh dear !. So, let them continue to grow food for us and plant crops for us and make greta wine for us !!. I found your 'blacks fleeing to Orania' very funny, could you imagine that, how funny would that be ! With regards to the indians, yes they are entreprenuers, but only on a small scale, they add no economic value to the South African state. They are not involved in big business and have no interest in public administration. So, Mirchi if you like, when I'm president, I'll create your very own state within Kwazulu Natal (maybe ladysmith !) But be warned the ANC will expect huge taxes on a regular basis ! just like Orania. So go ahead and creat your won african 'singapore'. Now that leaves us with the english speaking saffas, I think we will use them to our advantage, w'ell keep a few in SA (just like in kenya) and send the rest to Canada, UK, NZ and Australia !!! By the way, Jaco, I liked your comment about being a 'window dresser in london' and never wanting to return to SA. Let me inform you my Boer friend, alot of black south africans want to return to SA unlike the white saffa dogs who use the excuse of AA and crime to do the 'chicken run' to pastures new. then realsie that the 'grass is not greener on the other side'. I'm only in London for another 2 years then I can return to my lovely cape town villa. I'm chomping at the bit to return to SA. You probably both think I'm a racist, please let me re-assure you, I am. Guys, I'm not a marxist, but rather a social liberal, its just that I'm an honest guy and believe there's no point hidind anything. I work with lots of white saffas at the bank and dont get me wrong, we work and co-oprate together at a work level, but we just prefer not to socialise together. Anyway I have to go, I going the South African High Commission in London tonight to have diner with her excellency the high commissioner. Cheers , look forward to heraing from you guys

Mr. Lambo, I retract my comments, particularly the descriptives, and hope that your cousin, Mr. Mohamed, will have the constitution to involve / explain himself in the light of his comments, but, as will all cowards and liars, the only recourse is denial. Mr. Strauss, would it be possible for you to expose the nodding mayhem at the SABC? I eagerly await your response. And once again, Ade, this is not uncommon, but, unlike the ANC Youth League, it's not a playpen of immature politicians writing poetry about Robert Mugabe, so I would advise your cousin (if you indeed speak to him - questionable), to rather visit the sites of:

Deon Lambo
Why so silent Lambo. You launched a new debate and missed the point you had to comment on, that of affirmative action. Your tipe of comments shows the failures of affirmative action in some aspects. It is supposed to redress some of the past injustices but instead creates further injustices by not allowing South Africa, its people and the economy to tapp into the vast knowledge and potencial lost because of people seeking employment elsewhere. This is South Africa's loss. This is your loss, I think. Furthermore. I agree with most of the comments left in light of your "contribution". What you fail to see is that the very idea of AA leaves a gap for people like you to engage in racist hate speach, and then try to pass it off as fair comment in support of AA. What you wrote shows how the AA policies of our covernment creates a new Apartheid mindset. We are again back to the old ideas of "ons en hulle" (us and them). Please stay where you are we dont need this new kind of racial conservatism you propagate. You are NOT a South African!I dare you to answer everyone responding to your rubbish.

vanessav_vibe5_at_hotmail.comis it fair?
here i am sitting in australia...a country that, in my mind, is no better than south africa in lot of ways.. yet the reason having emmigrated to this country is purely because of the political situation. Now my question is, do you think that it is fair that my dad (highly qualified and experienced) was unemployed for over 3 years!!! The reason being : he's male and he's pale! So sadly after growing up in jhb i had to leave all my friends, family and familiarities behind and start all over again at the tender age of 17 is the hardest thing i have ever had to face. In many ways i will always resent the fact that my dad did this to me...but i cant blame him... the question stands : who is at fault and will our country ever see each individual, no matter what gender,age,colour, or race as equal???...

jessicajess__at_hotmail.comis it fair?
here i am sitting in australia...a country that, in my mind, is no better than south africa in lot of ways.. yet the reason having emmigrated to this country is purely because of the political situation. Now my question is, do you think that it is fair that my dad (highly qualified and experienced) was unemployed for over 3 years!!! The reason being : he's male and he's pale! So sadly after growing up in jhb i had to leave all my friends, family and familiarities behind and start all over again at the tender age of 17 is the hardest thing i have ever had to face. In many ways i will always resent the fact that my dad did this to me...but i cant blame him... the question stands : who is at fault and will our country ever see each individual, no matter what gender,age,colour, or race as equal???...

Simon Lambo
Appalling grammar and vitriol largely spell the case for a bored 'patriot' employed in comfortable London many miles away from dust strewn Dube and Pimville. Bordering on hate speech, Lambo goes slightly further by implying what his countryman Mbongeni Ngema did with 'Amadiya', that is to say, a near replica of the prelude to the Rwandan massacres (often this was spoken). Instead of being able to define the policy, he instead supports it - no wonder; that which was designed to manifest change in economic circumstances for previously disadvantaged people has sadly, in practise, benefitted the flexing connections of the ANC, 19 of them to be precise. I suspect Lambo is not previously disadvantaged in the sense that he received a private school education, hence the contempt and blatant lack of respect he displays - a contempt conspired by his ilk - the fortunate young black 'elite' discontent with their peers or systems (as they do not turn into millionaries overnight). If not, I apologize for the profile, but the sentiments express exactly that. Else, what are you saying Lambo? Working with communities reminds me of Ayn Rand and the principles of objectivism, which in turn renders me befuddled to the self promoting, ignorant, racist and corrupt qualities many black politicians lean toward, as their white predecessors did. The relentless pursuit of excellence is something our government has overlooked whilst it continually strives to 'reset past imbalances'and 'lead the African revival.'If it's revival you want, Lambo, take a look at the numbers of African nationals increasing featuring in organised crime. Is that who you want to replace us, South African whites and the Indians? Lambo wouldn't know, however, staring out of the window, supposedly watching and 'investing' other people's money. Had I the chance (not that I would want to know this fuckhead), I would have cautioned such a reactive recourse to a pointedly responsible argument; should Lambo see the wise Mr. Manuel and his money policies in tandem with the revival of Johannesburg through Art and involvement marketing principles, he might just have the light turned on in his greedy little darkness. Adversity causes some to break, others to break records. Sick and tired of being rejected by employers (such as South African banks), young, enthusiastic people are starting companies and thus re-writing the feckless legislation and actively encouraging physical participation in business - the case studies are emerging, but again, not that this fuckhead would notice. Lambo reminds me so much of people like Snuki Zikalala and Christine Qunta, anarchists and racial conspiracy theorists. The latter spearheaded President's Mbeki's witchhunt into racism in the media. She dreamed it, she led it, and when no evidence could be found, instead of retreating into the arena of the wrong, she settled for subliminal racism, as Chris Barron points out. Lambo, your connection to this is strong, not in the fact that you display political potential in your writing, but in the archetypical fashion of utilizing any given forum as a platform to vent your frustration. You do have the power to destroy any relationship's that have been forged between the races post and prior. I have no doubt you will use this power. Go figure, fuckhead.

Bruceneanderthalman1652_at_yahoo.comMy hope(?) for South Africa
Dear Mr (or have you perhaps obtained a doctorate somewhere in white Europe)Lambo. I am sure that 99% of all whites would gladly make a fair swop. All the whites can demolish all the western infrastructures, with which they so rudely spoiled the african landscape and then return to Europe. In turn all you indigenious folks can leave your designer outfits, luxury cars, white educated wifes and dollars behind and return to mother Africa. In a few years time the Europeans can then undertake hot air balloon safaris over the bare plains of Africa to marvel in the sight of animal skeletons, aids graves and small groups sitting by their bon fires asking the gods whom they should eat next. Good luck on your journey comrade Ade

Mirchimirchi5_at_hotmail.comMy hope for South Africa
Hi Ade I just read you flithy comments about my people the Hindus, or as you call them Indians. I see you want us out of SA. Well Idi Amin did that with Uganda, and his scrawny followers could not even run a simple shop, and messed up the economy. I guess you guys never learn. Now you will probably call me a racist and anti-black. Well let me enlighten you Mr. Afro-Nazi. My family were Sikh immigrants from Punjab, India. We put up with a lot of racism though not as bad as swastikas and shit on the door as many coloured settlers had. My life was hell from white racists in school makign no secret of their support for National Front. I grew into black power ideas like Malcolm X, and musically I was the only person in my school into RnB (back to its Motown days) and Hip-Hop. So obviously I had sympathy with the ANC and anti-apartheid struggle. My ideas changed as in 1993 I suffered black racism for the first time from a mixed race person lighter than myself saying how I should not have been in his Umoja meeting, a bunch of lay abouts with nothing but Klan syle hatred of non-blacks. Even balck friends (who had helped me when I had first left home and with whom I regularly shared my chicken curry with) foudn that offensive. Now I studied politics and history from a Leftist bias. It took me years to detoxify my mind. Now let's face it Africa since decolonisation is a disaster. It just gets worse. Since the whites left you have had wars, cannibalism, child rape and slavery. You site there and condemn whites for racism, and Hindus becuase they happen to run successful businesses, yet not a word for the Arabs and their Islamic ideology which enslaved you for hundreds of years (and would have taken over all Africa if colonialism by Europe had not arrived), Marxism which made hell on earth, and the kleptomaniac dictators which have screwed their own people and send thousands streaming to the west as illegal migrants. You want to fence off Orania. OK please Mr. Afro "Paul Kruger", African son of Hendrik Verwoerd, please fence off Chatsworth suburb of Durban as a Hindu state. I like that idea, Hindus who cannot even have a Hindu state in India will get one and turn it into Africa's Singapore (yet more proof that decolonisation can be successful). Based on Hindu ideas not race, the Hindu Volkstaat will welcome anyone regardless of race who shares Dharmic ideas. The rest of SA can turn into a cess pit as you all you barabaric Marxist, Afronazi maniacs eat each other. Then what excuse will you have. It was this crap which ehlped to instill fear among the "blankes" in the first place and strengthen apartheid. Enough of IMF aid, blaming apartheid, baling other scapegoats. You messed up scum screw your own people and are unable to develop. In 20 years time you will be trying to get that precious visa to UK, smuggled out in the hold of some smelly Panamanian registered fishing ship. Yes there has been too much water under the bridge, so give the minorities their idnependence and let Pagad, ANC, PAC, SACP and the AWB fight it out and turn South Africa into yet another example of African failure. Your whoel ideas are the usual round of Marxist, Nazi, racist and Islamic vomit. Jai (Victory to) Hindu Volkstaat Mirchi

shame shame...Anonymousnepotism
AA was doomed to fail, it has failed, pepsi failed, i dont even remeber the name of the all black managed brewery that failed, now we have black empowerment(this means that they keep the existing management) so as to redistribute wealth. AA should be called AN (affirmative nepotism) cause after ten years of AA most AA candidates are still unqualified? do they need more time to educate themself's? why dont they start employing qualified blacks? i see more and more qualified blacks asking me for work as waiters every day... the injustice of AA is turning on the very people it's supposed to benefit. personally i'd be ashamed to take a job if i was'nt qulified in the field, but shame, you guys need a HUGE helping hand to get you on your feet. i can only respect the blacks (and all other colours) that truly made a success on their own... and to simo, who thinks we don't belong here, SUCK EGGS , you'd be wearing a kudu skin mini skirt, looking for a scorpion to eat if it was'nt for the "voortrekkers"

mr giglesAnonymouslaugh at them
let them have the AA ... I SEE MORE AND MORE BLACK QULIFIED STUDENTS asking me for work every day, while the uneducated AA employee sits in the position the students deserve... AA should be called AN (affirmative nepotism) preffering the uneducated.. only thing i dont get is that no-one is toy-toying anymore ... ha ha

Jaco hope for South Africa
Can't say I blame you Ade. If it wasn't for AA you wouldn't have been "working in the london office of a big SA Bank", as you put it. You obviously don't mind the label, just as you don't mind the white guys above and below you doing your job for you. How could you mind it? If it weren't for those actually able to do the job, you would not have been able to hang around for the photo opportunities and demographic "targets" you were employed to fulfil in the first place!

Reading your nonsensical racist garbage, it is clear that it would not have been possible for you to find decent employment on your own merit. What is lost to you, however, is the unfortunate irony that suitably qualified and experienced black recruits have to suffer the same AA stigma caused by the appointment of the likes of you; opportunists whose only qualifications are their pigmentation levels, coupled with the membership card of the right party and possibly some nice nepotistic connections to really get them flying.

Let's take look at your "logic". You reckon "Saffas" opposed to AA should emigrate. I suppose Yanks opposed to the Iraq war should do likewise? Zims unhappy with Mad Bob? Bugger off, of course!

Pretty rich coming from a window dresser sitting in London and, like all the other blacks in London, most likely have no desire to return to Mother Africa. Much nicer to enjoy a free ride in the First World while scheming the deportation of millions of South Africans in a fruitless attempt to placate your own inferiority complex. And what a Phyrric victory successful deportation of whites and Indians would prove to be!

I would have thought that even people as short-sighted as you would've learnt something from Idi Amin's reign of terror against Ugandan Indians; or the current state of xenophobic Zimbabwe. But maybe you have learnt something after all, albeit only to serve as additional proof of your parasitic nature. Unlike Mad Bob, you don't seem to favour completely getting rid of the goose with the golden eggs. Oh no, you want to fence the "boers" in at Orania where the only thing you are interested in is to " tax them".

But deep down you know as well as I do what kind of state the economy, devoid of "boers", would be like? The blacks fleeing to "Orania" in search of food and work would completely dwarf the tide of African refugees Apartheid South Africa tried to stem with electric fences and armed border patrols.

Such a South Africa would make the Stone Age look like boom times.

ade Lamboadelambo_at_hotmail.comMy hope for South Africa
Iam a black South african currently working in the london office of a big SA Bank. Iam sick of listening to white saffas complaining of AA, if you guys dont like it, why dont you all emigrate and leave africa. There are thousands of blacks from different countries and whites from europe moving over to SA. So, I would like to see the SA whites leave our country,and blacks and whites from abroad taking their place, at least the english speaking whites have british passports, what can we do with the boers? Personally, I would like to see all boers be moved to Orania, we should then fence it off, make sure that they cannot use black workers, tax them, and leave them to 'do whatever' they like to do. I would love to see SA with only black people (coloureds included), but the indians could be also sent back to India. Enough of all the 'Madiba' concepts and ideas of unity: living and working together crap: There has ben too much water under the bridge.

Jaco, A very good piece of work. I have over time spent years overseas, especially America. From tiny Anderson Il to Tampa, Fort Pierce, Miami, Okeechobee, Seattle, I can carry on, finding one constant. A huge population of South Africans, mainly professionals. As America has good people of their own, they select the very cream - specialists in their fields, whatever field it may be. Those people are now part of a society that honour their contribution. Some may think back with nostalgia to the good old days, we all sometimes do, till they recollect that the specialist department their boss built up over 25 years to one of the best in the world, was dismantled by idiocy in a mere 4 years. R10000 a year maintenance for a R2.3million precision instrument was not available. These are details. The basic principle involved here is racism. And as a rose by any name still smells sweet, racism in all forms likewise stinks. And it stinks of poverty, of lack of wealth, but mainly of mind. Wealth is created not by being of one race or another, but by production, be it material goods or intellection property. Sure you need the opportunity, and that you got merely by being given a human body. Yes but, I am this or that. Sure. And Helen Keller was blind, deaf and dumb, and earned a college degree. It is a non-racist that packs his kitbag of skills, and leaves. It is the racists that remain behind and debate with emotional slogans and in so doing, encourage the departure of those that truly have. racism
To all those who have left,yuo did not belong here in the firt place.This is not abuot who's black or white but about who is trully South African ps let us stop trying to force people to be freinds black and white people.I do not have a problem with white people but that does'nt maen we have to be freinds,we can live with one another with each socialising with his own recial group so people stop forcing relations between racial groups.We are ok the way we are as long as we respect each others differanceses

roxistrawbz_at_msn.comEmployment Equity
I'm busy researching for a portfolio I have to complete as part of my matric syllabus and I came across this site. Iv chosen to do it on Affirmative Action, or employment equity as SA parliament prefers to call it. Firstly, to Mphilisi, how can you expect SA to develop and move forward as a nation if it is correcting the imbalances of the past by repeating them? Affirmative Action today is no different from the Colour Bar of yesterday. Secondly, to Gary Ferguson, after completing a number of questionnaires, it has become quite evident that Affirmative Action is hugely to blame for SA's "brain drain"crisis. Good for you - leave - soon the ANC are going to be left with a multitude of underqualified, inexperienced non-whites, and SA will degenerate to the ranks of any normal third world African country.

Marietha Blomerus Dos Santosmariethadossantos_at_hotmail.comAffirmative Action
While I am doing presently research for the Brazilian Government on Affirmative Action, I found this webdiscussion and like to add my two cents... I left SA a long time ago because of personal reasons and gender discrimination ... nevertheless, I have always found racism, nepotism and blatant discrimination in one way or another in the more than 50 countries I have been visiting and/or working in since, but in some way always manage to work. I have been doing development work and my vocation is to help to irradicate poverty as I believe poverty as the result of human greed is at the origin of all our conflicts... the one thing I am always keeping in mind is the 15th century Rumi quote saying: ..."Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing there is a field. I'll meet you there." Maybe we should remember that... Furthermore, remember that migration for greener pastures is as old as the world... we are all in need of a job, doesn't matter who/what we are... I am just wondering how far we can really blame anyone, for not having a job???

RoostaAnonymousThe benifits of affirmative action...
I would like someone to please explain to me the BENIFITS of affirmative racisim when faced with the results that will occur.. I left South Africa for good 5 years ago to live in freedom where I will not be racially prejudiced against. People ask me why I left.. I tell them that I left because I of the institutional racism from the South African government. Now days I am pleased to offer a substantial contribution to my new country both in taxes and in skills, and am pleased to have been released from the opression of Nelson Mandela and the ANC. In my travels of looking for a new home I met another South African (white) in America who has benifited from Affirmative Action (to the disgust of the government fo course). His story is that he applied for an affirmative action job requiring an African American.. At the interview the interviewers did not want to seem racist but did ask him how he fell into this category (not wanting to state the obvoius, that he was white).. He of course explained to them that he was born in Africa as was his forefathers and therefore an African, now he is a resident in America, therefore an American.. hence African American.. He got the job in any case (I think the company was afraid of the legal quagmire that might follow - and he was by FAR the best person for the job) Apparently not long after the company was inspected to see if they were meeting their "quota" for affirmative action and noticed this white guy listed as an African American.. Immediately flying into action they were ready to start something when they were informed that he was in FACT more "African American" than MOST "African Amercians" (explaining his history) to which the inspector claimed that he was white and did not qualify.. -- the story then made local newspapers (due to the racisim being displayed) and the company has NEVER been inspected again. So here is the thing boys and girls.. if moving to the US or looking to move there, make sure and apply for ALL affirmative action jobs.. since of course in SA now you are the CURRENTLY DISADVANTAGED.

aliceAnonymousGeneral Comment
people need to change and start to move on with their life

corina and aliceAnonymousaffirmative action
i dont like it

Mphilisi AnonymousAffirmative action
So you think AA is discrimination, I wonder how long it took whites to realise that apartheid was discrimination. I know that you miss the good old days, but on a serious note, i think AA has been brown out of propotion a bit. I am black and I sometimes disagree with the way is being implemented. We are all South africans let us come together and tackle what we are not happy about. For the white community I feel you brothers and i promise you that we are gonna be equal again.

I've been in SA few years ago as tourist and was completely astonished by how the SA is developed.This is the 'right' side.Another thing was question for myself: who has built all there?? So WHO?? Whites.I'm sure,that as democracy has nothing in common in muslims countries,apartheid MUST be the law in SA.Otherwise,that country will become not part of third world, but even worse.

Willwfdossantos_at_hotmail.comcultural shortfall
Having emmigrated, I see the great advantages of living in a country that values my skills and rewards me well for my effort. Here its the product that counts, and the government and private sector know that. In SA there is too much emphasis on central control and manipulation - the country will not succeed in the future if there isnt a liberalization of government restrictions and controls on the countries running

Hannes Deetlefsdeetlefs@compuserve.comracism
The fact that Mugabe is still in power - and even able to raise his income - explains racim better than all other arguments combined: The screaming silence in Africa says it all.

Jaco tell...
Hi Annette, as can be expected, he completely ignored it!

AnnetteAnonymouspray tell...
So how did Vuyo respond, if at all?

dinesh SA
hi all good stuff, nice site, and great to hear that you guys are throwing issues out into the open. it's very important. it's quite easy to get the feeling that white males are being discriminated against. i hear a lot of 'Indians' and 'Coloureds' also saying they were not white enough in the old days, and now they're not black enough. that's utter BULL. SA is a land of opportunities for anyone willing to make it happen for him/herself. affirmative action is THE best solution we have right now to get many more black people into upper echelons of leadership, as well as into highly skilled jobs. right now, white males simply eat up too much of the cake. if anyone has a better solution, please communicate it! as for those that want to leave for greener pastures. GO check it out! and just know that when you come back, we'll accept you with open arms. in the meanwhile, we're holding the fort, and fighting the good fight. there's work to be done, so i'm signing off to get going with that work ...... action
I think we will all agree that apartheid was wrong and devastating, but as an honors student studing human behaviour sciences, i would like to know when will the discrimination of AA end and be directed at working towards qualifications and not race, gender! We are the generation that had no part in apartheid and was educated, lived, and socialised as equals! now they should appoint us as equals!

Saffiethe_lass88@hotmail.comEmployment Equity
You should take a look at the Financial Services Board EE Charter. By 2008 they are looking at having LESS THAN ONE THIRD of the directors from the PDI group. Affirmative Action (Regstellende Aksie is a far better name for it) should NOT scare anyone who's very good at his job and who's prepared to work hard. White men had it too easy for too long in this country, they aren't happy with change for more fairness, that's the bottom line.

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